is PV3D dead ?

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is PV3D dead ?

Guillaume Amringer
Last commits I see in the SVN date back to april... I am wondering if the project is dead or if we will see other improvements in the future.


Guillaume Amringer

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Taha Khan
Hope PVX adopts the new 3d api by Flash. No news from the PV3D team yet, while Away 3D and Alternativa 3D are blowing me away with their demos.



On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Guillaume Amringer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Last commits I see in the SVN date back to april... I am wondering if the project is dead or if we will see other improvements in the future.


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Re: is PV3D dead ?

JohnBrookes
In reply to this post by Guillaume Amringer
Either its dead or its resting.
Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue. Beautiful plumage!
;)

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

makc
In reply to this post by Taha Khan
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases or anything magical.   Just an API.  

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.  Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.  It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.  You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
btw, that's a 1st Gen iPhone...

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:49 AM, John Grden <[hidden email]> wrote:
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases or anything magical.   Just an API.  

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.  Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.  It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.  You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.


On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Mark I. Ross
In reply to this post by John Grden-3

"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
> stopped
> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
> a
> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
> or anything magical.   Just an API.
>
> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
> PB
> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>
> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
> sake
> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
> to
> the moral.
>
> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
> 5-7yrs
> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>  Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>
> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>  It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
> step
> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
> demo's"
> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
> a
> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
> but
> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
> You
> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
> volkswagon.
>
> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>> a
>> year.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Papervision3D mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>
>
>
>
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> [  JPG  ]
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>



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Re: is PV3D dead ?

tomsamson
In reply to this post by John Grden-3
haha, zing :-)
Its funny, i remember how i said things in that vein some years ago and was looked at as weird dude back then, sorta like as if i had betrayed the flash community i was part of for so long just because i wanted to push for Adobe finally waking up.

With Adobe though, i´m sorta glad i haven´t worked on pv3d or one of the other 3D engines who did now not get early access to the next upcoming players´features, else i would have pissed off a lot for years long doing the work Adobe should have done and then its again that Adobe ploy where some get earlier access than even beta testers, hence leading to quite unfair market chance situation.
Next to that i feel like its too little too late from Adobe side, it sounds like they add some new apis but no engine, framework or ide tools to use it and also none of the "old" api, lamguage and in ide made stuff gets accelerated.
Weak sauce to me.

Just as john said, the demos are still impressive when one is stuck in flash only world view, but when one just looks a tid bit beyond that edge and sees things like as John again rightfully said what can be run on an iPhone when using other technologies.. man.

Bottomline:
Meanwhile i don´t have the stance anymore to try and get flash to do things its not made for or try to convince Adobe what they should implement in flash, its not worth it cause they will likely do something totally different anyway, best just use what´s a good choice for a particular use case. 
For some things that´s still flash, for others its unity and for again other things it could be again something different.
PV3D were the en vogue thing loved and hyped by Adobe etc for a while, now its Alternativa.
The guys can enjoy their time in the spotlight but expect it to be limited and at the end of the day, it would probably have been better spent doing nice stuff with something like unity rather than trying to cook such an engine in flash which in either case will still lead to way worse results on the same box.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 5:51 PM, John Grden wrote:

btw, that's a 1st Gen iPhone...

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:49 AM, John Grden <[hidden email]> wrote:
In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We stopped because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided a better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases or anything magical.   Just an API.  

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages PB and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the sake of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer to the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about 5-7yrs ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.  Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's more on an IPHONE with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.  It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you step out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with a volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo, but at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.  You can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now, but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.


On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost a year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

tomsamson
In reply to this post by Mark I. Ross
Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Cedric Muller
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Francis Altomare
Wow I missed that zombie one. Looks amazing, I can't wait to get my hands on this

2010/10/28 Cédric Muller <[hidden email]>
This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

tomsamson
In reply to this post by Cedric Muller
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Stig Kristiansen
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an
actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you
mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.

In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will
probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL?
Do not think so.

Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and
proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are
not my market.

As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the
right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be
Flash/Molehill.

On 10/28/2010 6:30 PM, tomsamson wrote:
> For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection,
> no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving
> besides the car mostly.


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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
In reply to this post by Mark I. Ross
seriously, I wasn't putting them down - I like the away3d guys and appreciate their work.  I merely said, they can't go any further than what flash allows for.  They do a fantastic job, and I wouldn't say anything against that - we've been down this road before, they know I respect their work, so let's leave it at that.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:05 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
> stopped
> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
> a
> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
> or anything magical.   Just an API.
>
> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
> PB
> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>
> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
> sake
> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
> to
> the moral.
>
> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
> 5-7yrs
> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>  Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>
> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>  It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
> step
> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
> demo's"
> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
> a
> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
> but
> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
> You
> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
> volkswagon.
>
> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>> a
>> year.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Papervision3D mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> [  JPG  ]
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> Papervision3D mailing list
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>



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Re: is PV3D dead ?

Ross Sclafani
In reply to this post by Stig Kristiansen
you so sure about this?

with the macbook air announcement,

will the flash web plugin going to be as built in as we've grown accustomed?


Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative

(347) 204.5714



If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Stig Kristiansen wrote:

+90% user penetrations sometime in 2012


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Re: is PV3D dead ?

nelson ramirez
In reply to this post by tomsamson

Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:30 PM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

_______________________________________________
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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org




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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
In reply to this post by tomsamson
I couldn't have said it any better - and I've said it to Adobe.

Until they bring the tools back to a mass user level, it doesn't mean dick.  It means that the smart geeks will continue to get off on their demo's but in the end - nobody knows about it or much less cares.  Give me the power wrapped up in the IDE with one API to leverage them all - sound familiar?  ( take your pick, LOR or Unity ;)

and the point about the middleware and citadel - that's an incredible point.  

People who are ONLY doing Flash 3D just aren't aware of what they *should* and *could* be doing.  All I'm saying is - try something else, and see.  It can only help push Adobe to make more bold steps.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:30 AM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org




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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
In reply to this post by Stig Kristiansen
You're fooling yourself if you're going with the penetration argument still.  

1.  It's not an issue like it used to be
2.  Unity's catching up and being adopted (just like flash was) by main sites and distribution.  

Don't believe me?  I've been doing Unity3D work for 2yrs straight now.  And we're a company that will do whatever is asked for.  But in all conversations, when you show the client what's doable, and *where* you can deploy their content beyond the browser, it's not even a discussion any longer.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stig Kristiansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
If what is beeing said about Molehill is true, it is basically just an actionscript API layer above DirectX and OpenGL below. Everything you mention should be easily doable with the right fragment and vertex shaders.

In my opinion the best selling point for Flash/Molehill is that it will probably reach +90% user penetrations sometime in 2012. Unity or WebGL? Do not think so.

Of course Unity may have better tools available and be a nicer and proven environment for making online games. I would not know, games are not my market.

As always it will end up with the old saying, use the right tool for the right job. For some jobs that would be Unity, for other it might be Flash/Molehill.


On 10/28/2010 6:30 PM, tomsamson wrote:
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.


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Re: is PV3D dead ?

John Grden-3
In reply to this post by nelson ramirez
again, we're not belittling - take the time to read what I've written.  

For the last time - away3d guys are brilliant, talented and have accomplished much.  End of story.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:13 PM, nelson ramirez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:30 PM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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Re: is PV3D dead ?

tomsamson
In reply to this post by nelson ramirez
Erm, slow, tiger. First:
I´m not one of the pv3d team members. I´m a longtime flash and other technologies user, artist and developer, that´s about it.
I personally don´t have any benefit or negative impact depending on who of the flash 3d engine developers gets invited to a party.
I have a stance on flash, which is i used to love it, use it for a ton of things and well, it kinda got stuck/ developed in wrong direction and way too slow in my eyes for many years now so meanwhile i use way more other technologies instead of flash for more and more things.
I had that stance way before molehill was announced or anything.

Next up: read John´s previous comment on the topic, i think he put his view nicely, so if you want to have the view of a pv3d core member focus on his comments.




On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:13 PM, nelson ramirez wrote:

Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:30 PM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org




--
[  JPG  ]
_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org




_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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[hidden email]
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123