adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

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adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Ross Sclafani
see fwd below.

thoughts? 

Ross P. Sclafani
designer / filmmaker

(347) 204.5714

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From: Hudson Ansley <[hidden email]>
Date: October 27, 2010 5:55:11 PM EDT
Subject: [FlashCodersNY] Re: project Molehill demo video and beta tester blog post
Reply-To: [hidden email]

hmm, wonder if Adobe has some issue with papervision... from
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/


The 3D capabilities enabled by the new APIs will also be available to
the broader developer community through popular ActionScript® 3D
frameworks, such as Alternativa3D, Away3d, Flare3D, Sophie3D or
Yogurt3D.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

...don't see papervision3D there... oversight?

Regards,
Hudson

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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Mark I. Ross
I don't think it's any surprise that the other mentioned engines are under active development whle we haven't heard anything about PV3D in a long, long time.  I mean, the last publicly discussed official updates being around a year ago....that's a long time.

ie.
http://twitter.com/papervision3d

:(

Ross Sclafani wrote:
see fwd below.

thoughts? 

Ross P. Sclafani
designer / filmmaker

(347) 204.5714

[ Saving the universe, one email at a time. ]

Welcome to Web 3.0™

Please consider future generations before printing electronic documents.


From: Hudson Ansley <[hidden email]>
Date: October 27, 2010 5:55:11 PM EDT
Subject: [FlashCodersNY] Re: project Molehill demo video and beta tester blog post
Reply-To: [hidden email]

hmm, wonder if Adobe has some issue with papervision... from
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/


The 3D capabilities enabled by the new APIs will also be available to
the broader developer community through popular ActionScript® 3D
frameworks, such as Alternativa3D, Away3d, Flare3D, Sophie3D or
Yogurt3D.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

...don't see papervision3D there... oversight?

Regards,
Hudson

--
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To post to this group, send email to [hidden email].
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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Stig Kristiansen
In reply to this post by Ross Sclafani
This is very good news for anyone working with 3D in Flash, the performance will increase several orders of magnitude and advanced shaders will be available.

Mind you, there will still be a need for 3D engines in Flash because the new API by Adobe is very low level and hard to use directly, it will probably be more akin to working with OpenGL 2/3 and shaders directly. Most developers will want something similar to a game engine (like papervision3d) that gives a more high-level abstract approach to 3D.

Unfortunately, I do not think papervision3d will be one of those engines. Because all development has obviously ceased completely, I mean there has been no news for a year now and the development collaboration site that was set up and announced seem completely dead.

Of course papervision3d is open-source so anyone can pick up the pieces and run with them.

Personally I am not sure the architecture in papervision3d will be a good fit with the new API, it will probably require quite a refactoring to be able to fully utilize the power in the new API. But this is guesswork based on what little information is out on the new APIs.

Also, there will be at least a year before the first Flash player supporting this stuff goes golden and is available for the general public.

Just my 0.05$

On 10/28/2010 2:26 AM, Ross Sclafani wrote:
see fwd below.

thoughts? 

Ross P. Sclafani
designer / filmmaker

(347) 204.5714

[ Saving the universe, one email at a time. ]

Welcome to Web 3.0™

Please consider future generations before printing electronic documents.


From: Hudson Ansley <[hidden email]>
Date: October 27, 2010 5:55:11 PM EDT
Subject: [FlashCodersNY] Re: project Molehill demo video and beta tester blog post
Reply-To: [hidden email]

hmm, wonder if Adobe has some issue with papervision... from
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/


The 3D capabilities enabled by the new APIs will also be available to
the broader developer community through popular ActionScript® 3D
frameworks, such as Alternativa3D, Away3d, Flare3D, Sophie3D or
Yogurt3D.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

...don't see papervision3D there... oversight?

Regards,
Hudson

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To post to this group, send email to [hidden email].
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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Ross Sclafani
Alternativa is one such engine. Are the other engines well ahead of papervision at this point? I haven't touched any of the others.. Votes of what's best right now?
 
Choosing via logo or product name was easier with papervision.. Both spot on.


Ross P. Sclafani
Design / Technology / Creative
347.204.5714

On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Stig Kristiansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is very good news for anyone working with 3D in Flash, the performance will increase several orders of magnitude and advanced shaders will be available.

Mind you, there will still be a need for 3D engines in Flash because the new API by Adobe is very low level and hard to use directly, it will probably be more akin to working with OpenGL 2/3 and shaders directly. Most developers will want something similar to a game engine (like papervision3d) that gives a more high-level abstract approach to 3D.

Unfortunately, I do not think papervision3d will be one of those engines. Because all development has obviously ceased completely, I mean there has been no news for a year now and the development collaboration site that was set up and announced seem completely dead.

Of course papervision3d is open-source so anyone can pick up the pieces and run with them.

Personally I am not sure the architecture in papervision3d will be a good fit with the new API, it will probably require quite a refactoring to be able to fully utilize the power in the new API. But this is guesswork based on what little information is out on the new APIs.

Also, there will be at least a year before the first Flash player supporting this stuff goes golden and is available for the general public.

Just my 0.05$

On 10/28/2010 2:26 AM, Ross Sclafani wrote:
see fwd below.

thoughts? 

Ross P. Sclafani
designer / filmmaker

(347) 204.5714

[ Saving the universe, one email at a time. ]

Welcome to Web 3.0™

Please consider future generations before printing electronic documents.


From: Hudson Ansley <[hidden email]>
Date: October 27, 2010 5:55:11 PM EDT
Subject: [FlashCodersNY] Re: project Molehill demo video and beta tester blog post
Reply-To: [hidden email]

hmm, wonder if Adobe has some issue with papervision... from
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/


The 3D capabilities enabled by the new APIs will also be available to
the broader developer community through popular ActionScript® 3D
frameworks, such as Alternativa3D, Away3d, Flare3D, Sophie3D or
Yogurt3D.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

...don't see papervision3D there... oversight?

Regards,
Hudson

--
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To post to this group, send email to [hidden email].
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_______________________________________________ Papervision3D mailing list [hidden email] http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Mark I. Ross
I favour Away3d/Away3dLite, especially now that they added proper BSP support you can make shit like first person shooters, etc....


Ross Sclafani wrote:
Alternativa is one such engine. Are the other engines well ahead of papervision at this point? I haven't touched any of the others.. Votes of what's best right now?
 
Choosing via logo or product name was easier with papervision.. Both spot on.


Ross P. Sclafani
Design / Technology / Creative
347.204.5714

On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Stig Kristiansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is very good news for anyone working with 3D in Flash, the performance will increase several orders of magnitude and advanced shaders will be available.

Mind you, there will still be a need for 3D engines in Flash because the new API by Adobe is very low level and hard to use directly, it will probably be more akin to working with OpenGL 2/3 and shaders directly. Most developers will want something similar to a game engine (like papervision3d) that gives a more high-level abstract approach to 3D.

Unfortunately, I do not think papervision3d will be one of those engines. Because all development has obviously ceased completely, I mean there has been no news for a year now and the development collaboration site that was set up and announced seem completely dead.

Of course papervision3d is open-source so anyone can pick up the pieces and run with them.

Personally I am not sure the architecture in papervision3d will be a good fit with the new API, it will probably require quite a refactoring to be able to fully utilize the power in the new API. But this is guesswork based on what little information is out on the new APIs.

Also, there will be at least a year before the first Flash player supporting this stuff goes golden and is available for the general public.

Just my 0.05$

On 10/28/2010 2:26 AM, Ross Sclafani wrote:
see fwd below.

thoughts? 

Ross P. Sclafani
designer / filmmaker

(347) 204.5714

[ Saving the universe, one email at a time. ]

Welcome to Web 3.0™

Please consider future generations before printing electronic documents.


From: Hudson Ansley <[hidden email]>
Date: October 27, 2010 5:55:11 PM EDT
Subject: [FlashCodersNY] Re: project Molehill demo video and beta tester blog post
Reply-To: [hidden email]

hmm, wonder if Adobe has some issue with papervision... from
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/


The 3D capabilities enabled by the new APIs will also be available to
the broader developer community through popular ActionScript® 3D
frameworks, such as Alternativa3D, Away3d, Flare3D, Sophie3D or
Yogurt3D.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

...don't see papervision3D there... oversight?

Regards,
Hudson

--
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To post to this group, send email to [hidden email].
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_______________________________________________ Papervision3D mailing list [hidden email] http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

JohnBrookes
Away3D for me too.
No real point in using PV anymore.


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Conceito Digital - Henrique
 
I was thinking in learn Alternativa3d...
 
Away3d is much better then Alternativa?
 
 
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] adobe vs. papervision = :( ?
 
Away3D for me too.
No real point in using PV anymore.


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

makc
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Conceito Digital - Henrique
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was thinking in learn Alternativa3d...
>
> Away3d is much better then Alternativa?
>

they used to say away is better because it's free, but now they are
both free, so it's equal choice.

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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Stig Kristiansen
Is Away open source?

I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects
having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.


On 10/28/2010 2:36 PM, Makc wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Conceito Digital - Henrique
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I was thinking in learn Alternativa3d...
>>
>> Away3d is much better then Alternativa?
>>
> they used to say away is better because it's free, but now they are
> both free, so it's equal choice.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

makc
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Stig Kristiansen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is Away open source?

yes, why?

>
> I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects
> having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.
>

you can't directly hack into core classes, but you can extend/override
stuff, seems enough to me.

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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Stig Kristiansen
Business reasons, not development reasons.

The correct business term is "freedom to operate".

On 10/28/2010 2:45 PM, Makc wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Stig Kristiansen
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Is Away open source?
> yes, why?
>
>> I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects
>> having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.
>>
> you can't directly hack into core classes, but you can extend/override
> stuff, seems enough to me.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Ross Sclafani
for the record, i prefer free beer..

[takes out sunglasses]

..although that often provides me freedom to operate..

[unfolds them]

..my magic..

[puts them on]

on the ladies.

[smile with bling effect]

Ross P. Sclafani
design / technology / creative

(347) 204.5714



If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Stig Kristiansen wrote:

Business reasons, not development reasons.

The correct business term is "freedom to operate".

On 10/28/2010 2:45 PM, Makc wrote:
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Stig Kristiansen
<[hidden email]>  wrote:
Is Away open source?
yes, why?

I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects
having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.

you can't directly hack into core classes, but you can extend/override
stuff, seems enough to me.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org



_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Merrill, Jason

I just got back from Adobe Max where I attended several sessions on the future of 3D in the Flash player.  The consensus?  Papervision paved the way for what’s possible with 3D in Flash, but Papervision3D is DEAD.  The frameworks to get serious about are Alternativa3D and Away 3D. Secondary would probably be Yogurt3d AND Flare3D.  Regardless, any framework now that wants to be taken seriously need to tap into the Molehill API which allows low-level access to the GPU for hardware rendering.  Any 3D engine that won’t be able to do that when Molehill (Flash player 10.2) goes live in the summer of 2011 is mostly irrelevant. And any framework not actively being worked on

 

My recommendation?  Get up to speed on either Alternativa 3d or Away 3d. They showed some AMAZING demos at Max, the performance and rendering blew me away.  So awesome now we can do things like render millions of polygon, eliminate depth sorting uses, render dynamic shadows, etc.  The last session on the last day at Max was a showcase from the Alternativa3D guys and the Away3D guys.  I’d maybe give a slight edge from what I gathered at the conference, demos and booths to Alternativa, but both are worth looking into and can do some amazing things.  I mean, stuff that can almost compete with consoles and PC games.  Certainly games like World of Warcraft, NASCAR Racing and Civilization  will be possible next summer with Molehill. You might not be able to do a full-blown effects laden Halo or Call of Duty with explosions and junk, but I don’t think that’s too far off.  Check out some of the demos on YouTube.

 

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCXxCD_GYTA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcKvS983K8c&NR=1

 

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LAN5GHm5eM

 

 

 

 Jason Merrill
 Instructional Technology Architect

 Bank of America  Global Learning

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ross Sclafani
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

 

for the record, i prefer free beer..

 

[takes out sunglasses]

 

..although that often provides me freedom to operate..

 

[unfolds them]

 

..my magic..

 

[puts them on]

 

on the ladies.

 

[smile with bling effect]

 

Ross P. Sclafani

design / technology / creative

 

(347) 204.5714


If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

 

On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Stig Kristiansen wrote:



Business reasons, not development reasons.

The correct business term is "freedom to operate".

On 10/28/2010 2:45 PM, Makc wrote:

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Stig Kristiansen

<[hidden email]>  wrote:

Is Away open source?

yes, why?

 

I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects

having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.

 

you can't directly hack into core classes, but you can extend/override

stuff, seems enough to me.

 

_______________________________________________

Papervision3D mailing list

[hidden email]

http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

 



_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

 


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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

Merrill, Jason

Oh, and be sure to check out this demo of hardware acceleration via Molehill and Alternativa3D:

 

(pay attention to the dynamic shadows and lighting effects produced by the monsters)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aein6drd_Hk

 

 

 Jason Merrill
 Instructional Technology Architect

 Bank of America  Global Learning

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merrill, Jason
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

 

I just got back from Adobe Max where I attended several sessions on the future of 3D in the Flash player.  The consensus?  Papervision paved the way for what’s possible with 3D in Flash, but Papervision3D is DEAD.  The frameworks to get serious about are Alternativa3D and Away 3D. Secondary would probably be Yogurt3d AND Flare3D.  Regardless, any framework now that wants to be taken seriously need to tap into the Molehill API which allows low-level access to the GPU for hardware rendering.  Any 3D engine that won’t be able to do that when Molehill (Flash player 10.2) goes live in the summer of 2011 is mostly irrelevant. And any framework not actively being worked on

 

My recommendation?  Get up to speed on either Alternativa 3d or Away 3d. They showed some AMAZING demos at Max, the performance and rendering blew me away.  So awesome now we can do things like render millions of polygon, eliminate depth sorting uses, render dynamic shadows, etc.  The last session on the last day at Max was a showcase from the Alternativa3D guys and the Away3D guys.  I’d maybe give a slight edge from what I gathered at the conference, demos and booths to Alternativa, but both are worth looking into and can do some amazing things.  I mean, stuff that can almost compete with consoles and PC games.  Certainly games like World of Warcraft, NASCAR Racing and Civilization  will be possible next summer with Molehill. You might not be able to do a full-blown effects laden Halo or Call of Duty with explosions and junk, but I don’t think that’s too far off.  Check out some of the demos on YouTube.

 

Hardware accelerated Alternativa3D using Molehill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCXxCD_GYTA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcKvS983K8c&NR=1

 

Hardware accelerated Away3d using Molehill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LAN5GHm5eM

 

 

 

 Jason Merrill
 Instructional Technology Architect

 Bank of America  Global Learning

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ross Sclafani
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

 

for the record, i prefer free beer..

 

[takes out sunglasses]

 

..although that often provides me freedom to operate..

 

[unfolds them]

 

..my magic..

 

[puts them on]

 

on the ladies.

 

[smile with bling effect]

 

Ross P. Sclafani

design / technology / creative

 

(347) 204.5714


If you don't have a plan B, you don't have a plan.

 

On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Stig Kristiansen wrote:

 

Business reasons, not development reasons.

The correct business term is "freedom to operate".

On 10/28/2010 2:45 PM, Makc wrote:

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Stig Kristiansen

<[hidden email]>  wrote:

Is Away open source?

yes, why?

 

I know Alternativa is only free as in free-beer. In my type of projects

having access to the source is actually an essential requirement.

 

you can't directly hack into core classes, but you can extend/override

stuff, seems enough to me.

 

_______________________________________________

Papervision3D mailing list

[hidden email]

http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

 



_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
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Re: adobe vs. papervision = :( ?

helloboy
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