Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 35

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Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 35

Codejockey1
There were quite a few parties...  I'll still recovering

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:32 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: is PV3D dead ? (Andy Zupko)
  2. Re: is PV3D dead ? (tomsamson)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andy Zupko <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:30:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
I didn't know there was a party


On Oct 28, 2010, at 12:23 PM, John Grden wrote:

and besides, who said we weren't invited to the party?  you assume too much.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:13 PM, nelson ramirez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wow PV3D guys. Way to sound petty and small.
It's not unreasonable to expect tooling for molehill to come later on as a big selling point on CSx
Releases.
Just because you weren't invited to the party doesn't mean you can belittle the work of the guys who did.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:30 PM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: tomsamson <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:32:00 +0200
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
I add my comments marked with -->


On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:16 PM, John Grden wrote:

I couldn't have said it any better - and I've said it to Adobe.

-->yeah, me, too, several times. At the end i was thrown out of the beta for constantly asking for more improvements before shipping things :-D That was the moment i finally realized: Some guys at Adobe and me just have a quite different view regarding in which state flash really is and towards which direction it should ideally develop and hence no use to argue with those guys :-)



Until they bring the tools back to a mass user level, it doesn't mean dick.  It means that the smart geeks will continue to get off on their demo's but in the end - nobody knows about it or much less cares.  Give me the power wrapped up in the IDE with one API to leverage them all - sound familiar?  ( take your pick, LOR or Unity ;)


-->Exactly. I couldn´t agree more. 

and the point about the middleware and citadel - that's an incredible point.  

People who are ONLY doing Flash 3D just aren't aware of what they *should* and *could* be doing.  All I'm saying is - try something else, and see.  It can only help push Adobe to make more bold steps.

-->Totally. Maybe it takes a few more people getting thrown out of betas, but hey, at least the moaning and publicly leaving flash by seasoned users is forcing them to progress on some ends sometime :-D



On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:30 AM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dunno about the others, but all i said totally applies to the videos showing the molehill demos and all info stated by Adobe on the stuff.
Adobe seems to not be a lot into integrating the new api for usage in visual workflow in the ide, nor does it seem to be integrated with any of the old languages/ apis, so old stuff still runs slow as always.
And yeah, even the nicest demos shown there are still years behind what was doable in unity etc several years ago and is not close to being a match for what other technologies allow doing now.
For example that race game demo, no realtime environment reflection, no skidmarks, particle effects or anything really dynamic or moving besides the car mostly.
Compare it to unreal citadel demo running on iPad to get what other middleware is capable of even on way less powerful machines.
Not even to mention that it isn´t cross platform as in runs like that on anything besides mac/ pc anytime soon and even for those it will probably not be finalized and nicely usable for at least a year and then.
For example propper mobile support is touted so long by Adobe as if it was already live in action anywhere.
How many Android devices can run flash right now and how many of those in propper usable performance besides for the most basic 2D content?
I´m also wondering what Adobe thinks why people should buy Flash IDE anymore if it doesn´t offer any visual editing support for most things introduced api side since flash 7.
Nice people like the alternative guys create engines and frameworks "for them" but yeah..





On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Cédric Muller wrote:

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:



Cedric


Well, John´s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:


"So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
pointless."

Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
can't just be dismissed like that.

They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
of fact.

Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
it and enjoy the new speed.

If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
sorta crazy.



In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
stopped
because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
a
better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
or anything magical.   Just an API.

Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
PB
and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.

So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
sake
of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
to
the moral.

I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
5-7yrs
ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.

I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
step
out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
demo's"
from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
a
volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
but
at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
You
can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
volkswagon.

If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
a
year.

_______________________________________________
Papervision3D mailing list
[hidden email]
http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org




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