Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

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Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

Stephan Tanguay
MoleHill should be interesting for the interactive advertising market.  I have yet to see a microsite or banner ad built with Unity3D.  Unity3D is a great platform and the IDE is sweet but GPU accelerated flash should make for some interesting multimedia experiences in the browser.  Yes you can use Unity3D in the browser but the adoption rate is a barrier for market penetration.  
 

Stephan
Tanguay

Interactive Designer/Developer

call2action.ca



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 12:30:24 PM
Subject: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

Send Papervision3D mailing list submissions to
    [hidden email]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: is PV3D dead ? (C?dric Muller)
  2. Re: is PV3D dead ? (Francis Altomare)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:19:15 +0200
From: C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:

http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs

http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w

Cedric


> Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>
>> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
>> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
>> pointless."
>>
>> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
>> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
>> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
>> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
>> can't just be dismissed like that.
>>
>> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
>> of fact.
>>
>> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
>> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
>> it and enjoy the new speed.
>>
>> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
>> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
>> sorta crazy.
>>
>>
>>
>>> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>>> stopped
>>> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>>> a
>>> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>>> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>>>
>>> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>>> PB
>>> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>>>
>>> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>>> sake
>>> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>>> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>>> to
>>> the moral.
>>>
>>> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>>> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>>> 5-7yrs
>>> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>>> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>>>
>>> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>>> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>>> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>>> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>>> step
>>> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>>> demo's"
>>> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>>> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>>> a
>>> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>>> but
>>> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>>> You
>>> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>>> volkswagon.
>>>
>>> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>>> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>>> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>>>> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>>>> a
>>>> year.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [  JPG  ]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Papervision3D mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:29:38 -0400
From: Francis Altomare <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimOpxftrmRAg-qKXpd+E=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Wow I missed that zombie one. Looks amazing, I can't wait to get my hands on
this

2010/10/28 C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>

> This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
> the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
>
> If anyone missed these:
>
> http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs
>
> http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w
>
> Cedric
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs>
>
>  Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
> done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
> when compared to various other things.
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>
> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
> pointless."
>
> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
> can't just be dismissed like that.
>
> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
> of fact.
>
> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
> it and enjoy the new speed.
>
> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
> sorta crazy.
>
>
>
> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>
> stopped
>
> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>
> a
>
> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>
> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>
>
> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>
> PB
>
> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>
>
> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>
> sake
>
> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>
> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>
> to
>
> the moral.
>
>
> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>
> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>
> 5-7yrs
>
> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>
> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>
>
> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>
> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>
> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>
> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>
> step
>
> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>
> demo's"
>
> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>
> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>
> a
>
> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>
> but
>
> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>
> You
>
> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>
> volkswagon.
>
>
> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>
> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>
> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>
> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>
> a
>
> year.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> [  JPG  ]
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>


--
Francis Altomare,
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Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

tomsamson
<base href="x-msg://169/">
I have actually seen quite a number of microsites and also games built with unity3d. Just have a look for some of the EA games made in unity.
Adoption rate? 
What´s the adoption rate of that upcoming flash player? Its hard to tell how quickly it will get adopted, right now it has an aoption percentage of 0. That´s far below what unity has right now.
Next up: How important adoption rate generally is depends on your type of content and target audience. If you create content that is suited for your grandma, then yes, adoption rate is very important. If you´re doing a 3d game for a younger audience then its usually way more important how smooth the plugin install goes, way less if there´s a plugin installation required.
Next up: A plugin install is generally not as dramatic as it used to be when people had way slower internet connection speeds and had to pay per minute.
And finally: Adoption rates for plugins are outdated. A very quickly growing percentage of people browsing the apps, enjoying apps/ games etc are using smartphones/tablets for that. Where is flash content distribution there compared to what other middleware solutions allow there?

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Stephan Tanguay wrote:

MoleHill should be interesting for the interactive advertising market.  I have yet to see a microsite or banner ad built with Unity3D.  Unity3D is a great platform and the IDE is sweet but GPU accelerated flash should make for some interesting multimedia experiences in the browser.  Yes you can use Unity3D in the browser but the adoption rate is a barrier for market penetration.  
 

Stephan 
Tanguay

Interactive Designer/Developer

call2action.ca



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 12:30:24 PM
Subject: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

Send Papervision3D mailing list submissions to
    [hidden email]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    [hidden email]

You can reach the person managing the list at
    [hidden email]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Papervision3D digest..."


Today's Topics:

  1. Re: is PV3D dead ? (C?dric Muller)
  2. Re: is PV3D dead ? (Francis Altomare)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:19:15 +0200
From: C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:

http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs

http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w

Cedric


> Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> 
>> 
>> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
>> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
>> pointless."
>> 
>> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
>> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
>> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
>> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
>> can't just be dismissed like that.
>> 
>> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
>> of fact.
>> 
>> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
>> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
>> it and enjoy the new speed.
>> 
>> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
>> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
>> sorta crazy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>>> stopped
>>> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>>> a
>>> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>>> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>>> 
>>> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>>> PB
>>> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>>> 
>>> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>>> sake
>>> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>>> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>>> to
>>> the moral.
>>> 
>>> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>>> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>>> 5-7yrs
>>> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>>> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>>> 
>>> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>>> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>>> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>>> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>>> step
>>> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>>> demo's"
>>> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>>> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>>> a
>>> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>>> but
>>> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>>> You
>>> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>>> volkswagon.
>>> 
>>> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>>> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>>> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>>>> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>>>> a
>>>> year.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> [  JPG  ]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Papervision3D mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:29:38 -0400
From: Francis Altomare <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimOpxftrmRAg-qKXpd+E=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Wow I missed that zombie one. Looks amazing, I can't wait to get my hands on
this

2010/10/28 C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>

> This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
> the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
>
> If anyone missed these:
>
> http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs
>
> http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w
>
> Cedric
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs>
>
>  Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
> done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
> when compared to various other things.
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>
> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
> pointless."
>
> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
> can't just be dismissed like that.
>
> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
> of fact.
>
> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
> it and enjoy the new speed.
>
> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
> sorta crazy.
>
>
>
> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>
> stopped
>
> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>
> a
>
> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>
> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>
>
> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>
> PB
>
> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>
>
> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>
> sake
>
> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>
> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>
> to
>
> the moral.
>
>
> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>
> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>
> 5-7yrs
>
> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>
> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>
>
> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>
> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>
> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>
> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>
> step
>
> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>
> demo's"
>
> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>
> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>
> a
>
> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>
> but
>
> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>
> You
>
> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>
> volkswagon.
>
>
> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>
> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>
> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>
> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>
> a
>
> year.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> [  JPG  ]
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Papervision3D mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

John Grden-3
I couldn't agree more.

and again, let's keep apples to apples - campare 3D gaming and none of this penetration discusion even exists.

On top of that, he's right about tablets and smart devices.  I live on my iPad, and look forward to getting an android tab.  But after 7months on my iPad, I've learned that flash isn't really all that.  I do agree that there is a ton of content that we miss out on because it's flash based, but on a tablet, power/speed is everything.   Jobs may sound like a controlling nazi (ok, he's definitely a controlling nazi), but he's right about dragging performance down.  As it is, with browser based content, there's a competition for speed/power/etc and I can only imagine having flash content enabled along with everything else going on in the web page would be a nightmare.  That's just a fact. I'm not saying the flash player is terrible blah blah blah, I'm saying it just would run well in THAT environment.

So, unity produces pure Xcode projects for iPhone/iPad and they run extremely fast.  Same for android.  Oh, same for xbox, ps3, and wii.  Oh, and a stand alone for win/mac... oh and let's not forget browser support on both mac/pc

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:10 PM, tomsamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have actually seen quite a number of microsites and also games built with unity3d. Just have a look for some of the EA games made in unity.
Adoption rate? 
What´s the adoption rate of that upcoming flash player? Its hard to tell how quickly it will get adopted, right now it has an aoption percentage of 0. That´s far below what unity has right now.
Next up: How important adoption rate generally is depends on your type of content and target audience. If you create content that is suited for your grandma, then yes, adoption rate is very important. If you´re doing a 3d game for a younger audience then its usually way more important how smooth the plugin install goes, way less if there´s a plugin installation required.
Next up: A plugin install is generally not as dramatic as it used to be when people had way slower internet connection speeds and had to pay per minute.
And finally: Adoption rates for plugins are outdated. A very quickly growing percentage of people browsing the apps, enjoying apps/ games etc are using smartphones/tablets for that. Where is flash content distribution there compared to what other middleware solutions allow there?

On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Stephan Tanguay wrote:

MoleHill should be interesting for the interactive advertising market.  I have yet to see a microsite or banner ad built with Unity3D.  Unity3D is a great platform and the IDE is sweet but GPU accelerated flash should make for some interesting multimedia experiences in the browser.  Yes you can use Unity3D in the browser but the adoption rate is a barrier for market penetration.  
 

Stephan 
Tanguay

Interactive Designer/Developer

call2action.ca



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 12:30:24 PM
Subject: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: is PV3D dead ? (C?dric Muller)
  2. Re: is PV3D dead ? (Francis Altomare)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:19:15 +0200
From: C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)

If anyone missed these:

http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs

http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w

Cedric


> Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies when compared to various other things.
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> 
>> 
>> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
>> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
>> pointless."
>> 
>> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
>> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
>> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
>> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
>> can't just be dismissed like that.
>> 
>> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
>> of fact.
>> 
>> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
>> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
>> it and enjoy the new speed.
>> 
>> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
>> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
>> sorta crazy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>>> stopped
>>> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>>> a
>>> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>>> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>>> 
>>> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>>> PB
>>> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>>> 
>>> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>>> sake
>>> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>>> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>>> to
>>> the moral.
>>> 
>>> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>>> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>>> 5-7yrs
>>> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>>> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>>> 
>>> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>>> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>>> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>>> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>>> step
>>> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>>> demo's"
>>> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>>> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>>> a
>>> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>>> but
>>> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>>> You
>>> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>>> volkswagon.
>>> 
>>> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>>> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>>> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>>>> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>>>> a
>>>> year.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> [  JPG  ]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Papervision3D mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> 
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:29:38 -0400
From: Francis Altomare <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Papervision3D] is PV3D dead ?
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimOpxftrmRAg-qKXpd+E=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Wow I missed that zombie one. Looks amazing, I can't wait to get my hands on
this

2010/10/28 C?dric Muller <[hidden email]>

> This whole thread doesn't take into account the latest molehill videos on
> the web, does it ? Does it ? I am ... loosing focale :)
>
> If anyone missed these:
>
> http://jpauclair.net/2010/10/27/molehill/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs
>
> http://www.flashrealtime.com/max-racer-multiplayer/
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwi0lWgX8w
>
> Cedric
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs>
>
>  Well, John?s point was that its kinda useless when comparing what can be
> done with flash regarding 3D with what can be done with other technologies.
> Nice for flash terms, but yeah, more than 5 years behind other technologies
> when compared to various other things.
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>
> "So when I hear about "incredible demo's" from away, I think kudo's to
> those guys for their talent for sure, but I have to ask - *why*?  It's
> pointless."
>
> Uh, it's hardly pointless dude, with Away3DLite they have way more poly's
> rendered than PV3D could ever support.  While PV3D dev stopped, Away team
> kept moving forward, adding useful stuff for people, improving
> performance, etc.  If you don't find it useful that's fine but their work
> can't just be dismissed like that.
>
> They also added BSP which runs at good speed in the browser, as a matter
> of fact.
>
> Then when the new 3d hardware acceleration comes from Adobe they just have
> to change the underlying code to support that and we can just keep using
> it and enjoy the new speed.
>
> If PV3D team chose to stop working on the framework, that's fine, but to
> disparage/be dismissive of the amazing work the other teams are doing is
> sorta crazy.
>
>
>
> In all honesty, we'd love to see PV3D continue to be developed.  We
>
> stopped
>
> because the new 3D api from adobe wasn't giving us anything that provided
>
> a
>
> better experience over what we already had.  There were no speed increases
>
> or anything magical.  Just an API.
>
>
> Until adobe makes the experience with PB seamless (ie: AS3 api leverages
>
> PB
>
> and at the same speeds), it's just a toy for the few.
>
>
> So, with that, we didn't see much point in just rewriting PV3D for the
>
> sake
>
> of a new api that didn't give us any benefit.  That and being
>
> disenfranchised by adobe's lack of support for hardware is just a killer
>
> to
>
> the moral.
>
>
> I've moved on to products that actually allow me to leverage all of my
>
> experience with PV3D/AS3 - Unity3D being one of them.  They're about
>
> 5-7yrs
>
> ahead of adobe right now with regards to a 3D browser based plugin for 3D.
>
> Not to mention you can create for many different platforms of course.
>
>
> I think the final straw for me was when I realized I was able to do 10x's
>
> more on an *IPHONE* with Unity3D than in a browser with flash.
>
> It's unbelievable the lack of power you deal with when you're doing 3D
>
> flash - it's a joke.  Thing is, you don't know about the joke until you
>
> step
>
> out and experience something else.  So when I hear about "incredible
>
> demo's"
>
> from away, I think kudo's to those guys for their talent for sure, but I
>
> have to ask - *why*?  It's pointless.  It's like they're all dealing with
>
> a
>
> volkswagon - sure, you can put a kick-ass paint job on it, rims, stereo,
>
> but
>
> at the end of the day, guess what?!  it's still a freakin' volkswagon.
>
> You
>
> can't change the engine, you can't change the tranny - it's still a
>
> volkswagon.
>
>
> If the flash player changes, I'm sure PV3D will leverage it.  It may not
>
> have the rims/tires/paint/stereo system that other engines have right now,
>
> but it's fast, reliable and has a great and easy to understand API.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Makc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>

>
> Ralph took PVX with him when he left the team.
>
> Last known papervision is PV3 on github, which is not updated for almost
>
> a
>
> year.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>

>
>
>
>
> --
>
> [  JPG  ]
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Papervision3D mailing list
>
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>
> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>


-- 
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[  JPG  ]

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Re: Papervision3D Digest, Vol 49, Issue 28

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